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« Theology & Film - Podcast Lecture 10 | Main | Oscar® Nominations »

October 04, 2007

Comments

Joshua Ballard

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

That is all.

Mitchell Bailey

'I would argue that it is simply curmudgeonly to select the former, so, I choose the latter'

I would say the former is feigned although a person is not always selecting it curmudgeonly as they hope in themselves and their ability to obtain a successful life through their own merits.

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?
Thankfully, I am only able to respond to this question abstractly, however by attempting to conceptualise myself in the position of the recipient of unspeakable harm, the answer becomes much more difficult. Theoretically I would say yes it is possible to forgive the perpetrator out of love, but it is only out of my love for Christ that I am compelled to do so. Even then, am I forgiving only because I potentially risk losing my salvation if I don't or because I truly see the perpetrator through Christ's eyes? I believe that the heart of an individual fully yielded to Christ is ultimate justice, but if unspeakable harm befell a loved one, would I have the strength to pray for this?

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God either way?
David raised an excellent point during the review. We may agree to the idea of the death penalty, but what if we ourselves were tasked with "flicking the switch"? Firstly, capital punishment is the law of the land (not in our country, but in some others) and therefore if I disagree with it all I can do is vote against it at election time. If capital punishment was originally instituted to terrify people out of committing heinous crimes, then it is dismally failing and needs to be re-evaluated. Secondly, locking someone up for life to stop them re-offending is just as effective as killing them, although more costly to the taxpayer (but that is a separate issue...) So if our motive is not based on economics or protecting the community, then why are we engaged in capital punishment? Who are we to say that any individual is beyond rehabilitation? Notice I am not advocating release from prison, I am just talking about the possibility of rehabilitation (although one could argue this is pointless without the goal of integration back into the community). This argument may be idealistic, however we as a community are choosing to say, this individual's life, because of their actions, is no longer of any value to the community and must be terminated. I don't believe locking a person behind bars is playing God as we have a responsibility to protect the community, however I do believe that by capital punishment we are saying that some people just aren't worth the effort (where as God's salvation is available to all humankind). Whether we like it or not capital punishment is the responsibility of the entire community and not just the government.

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?
We align ourselves with Christ through our individual confession and we work out our salvation through loving our neighbours as we love ourselves. My personal belief in Christ cannot save my neighbour, but my love for my neighbour can compel them to confess Christ in their own life.

Jacqueline Worcester

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?

To this question I would have to say yes. I have chosen this topic for my assignment. While I was researching I realized a friend of mine has gone through the "unspeakable harm" from others and I interviewed her for my assignment. She said forgiveness is not only possible but it is necessary for her own healing. she said "Forgiving is'nt about them it's about me." Although forgiveness is a process that will probably take time. It is necessary for her healing and state of mind.
It is true that some choose not to forgive and hold on to the hate for their own reasons and that is their choice. BUT while they choose not to forgive they are letting the perpetrator hold them captive in their minds and it is not until one chooses to forgive that we can be let go from the grip they have over us.

One also must remember that forgiveness does not mean reconciliation with the perpetrator. Nor does it mean an absolution from the punishment for their crimes. But it does mean release for the victim.

2. Is capital punishment really a form of Playing God, or are we forced to play God either way?

For my answer on this one I will quote Matthew Poncelet "I just want to say that I believe killing is wrong, whether it is me, you'll or the government, killing is wrong."

Another quote from "Choosing Mercy" by Antoinette Bosco. A mother of Murder victims says. "Don't kill for me in the name of justicie- because the death peanalty is not justice- it is leagalized murder."

In reflection of these quotes and many others I realize that. Neither I nor the goverment should have the right to take someone's life.
I think that taking away freedom for the rest of their natural life is enough.

Some may say "this comes at great expense to the tax payer." So do we let economics decide who lives and who dies. Should the poorer third world nations execute more people to save valuable tax payer money that they could otherwise be spent on for instance- better roads or hospitals. Where do we draw the line at who lives and who dies.

Some people justify it and say well, the bible says it's ok. The Old Testament bible also said we whould stone chilren to death who do not obey their father and mother. I am afraid I would be dead a long time ago if we still kept that law. Oh, and if you have committed adultery you must die- and the list goes on.

I do not believe that taking life for any reason is right, weather legislated by the government or any thing else.

3. Are we redeemed through the gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?

To this I would have to say that ultimately salvation is workded out in the individuals heart. For no one can make the decision for me to make Jesus the Lord of my life.

Saying this however, I do believe that we as a community and as individuals can have a great impact on whether or not someone chooes to accept Christ.

lance davis

1.Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?

Well for this one it's interesting that in the news recently the Indonesian Christains decided to forgive a group of Islam extremists who, among other things: killed 600 on a ship, killed some 60 people in a bombing and sent the heads of a few Christian children in a bag back to their families. Now, the Christian community decided to forgive them ("them" referring to the extremists) which made a bridge between the non-extremist islamic people and the Christians. The results were supernaturally positive. It's an amazing testimony and very biblical: "love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you." of course easier said than done:

2. on to the next point. What do you do with the really nice, well meaning guys who sent the children's heads home in a bag?...Jesus says pray for them. Does he mean don't worry about trying to punish them? Does he mean don't worry about taking responsibility for preventing this from happening in the future? I think sometimes Christians look heavenward in a prayer circle and God is not impressed. Both with our ignoring of the poor AND rapant injustice. The question, "Would i flick the switch," perhaps, reflects humanity's desire to wash their hands of responsibility more than their "determination" to do the "right" thing. In fact I don't see God physically doing too much around this evil planet without using us obedient humans as his hands and his feet. Of course this can be abused. But to do nothing in my opinion is worse.

3. Are we redeemed through the gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?
This question evades me. I like Michael and Jaci's points about how as we are right before God (without judging) others are compelled. I believe God is still capable to redeem people soaking in individualistic culture just as much as he was able to save the polytheistic Greek culutre 2,000 years ago. But for today it perhaps requires admitting the difference between "chose you're own salvation with fear and trembling" and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Most likely, "Not my will but yours" makes little sense in contemporary thinking.

Anna H

1. I believe in christ we have the capacity to forgive all wrongs. It is not out of our own love, but christs love that we have this capacity to do so. It is certainly not easy but comes down to a choice we must make.Christ tells us that unless we forgive, we can not ourselves be forgiven so by not forgiving we are condeming ourselves.

2.I believe no human being has the right to end the life of the other. Vengeance and justice will prevail but it is not up to us to do so by killing eachother.

3.Salvation is individual but I believe that God uses people community and relationship to reveal himself.

Ruthy

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?
I do not think we are capable to “love” our enemies and I don’t think Love can allow us to “Forgive” our enemies, unless of course we are Jesus. In saying that, however, there are certain degrees of forgiveness that us as humans can accept. In regards to the horrific acts committed in the film, I think my answer comes from the definition of Love from 1 Corinthians 13:5 “Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged”… I don’t think I would be able to not be irritable or even ever forget the tragedies…
2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God either way?
I don’t think we are forced to play God. But since the days before Jesus, there have always been laws and rules to follow, actions have consequences. Who are we to decide what the consequences are? If I was the mother in Dead Man Walking I’d probably turn into a ogre...and not the nice ogre like Shrek! Mitchell has raised a lot of good points which I thought but he has expressed ever so well!
3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?
My actions…lead to consequences…and salvation is therefore my choice.

Ribekka  Byberg

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm? 
Yes, I believe so. But I believe that forgiving and forgetting is not necessarily the same. People still need to take responsibility for their actions. If a person had abused me, I believe I would forgive him, but I would not treat him as anyone else…
2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God 
either way? I believe that it is a form of playing God. A human being is a human being, even though he has acted like a monster. God alone should have the authority to end someone’s life, because he is the one who gave life in the first place.
3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is 
worked out in the context of community? I believe that salvation is a personal experience, but salvation is also a journey, which is worked out through the community. Now and not yet…

Kristina Fuglesten

1. I think it is important to distinguish between forgiving and forgetting. I is not like I would become best friend with the person, and I do not think that God expects that from me. But I do think that with God's help and with help of others that it would be able to forgive the person. As someone said in class last week, forgiveness is not something that is done once, it is a choice that you make every-time bitterness wants to come in to your heart. It would be the hardest thing ever, but I think it is a process and that God will heal the hearts over time.

2. I would never put myself in a situation where I would have to decide another persons destiny. I do not think that killing people solves anything, specially when it is done by the government. What frustrates me the most is that the action is done in Jesus' name. To defend the action on behalf of God is disgusting. Capital punishment does not solve any problems, it is like putting a plaster on a cancer cluster.

3. As we come into a relationship with God, reconciled to him we are also being reconciled with the rest of the creation. So when a person commits their life to Christ is will effect the people we are in relationship with. But I do not think that politics are the solution, because politics are determined by the values of the society, which is often not godly, so how can you expect ungodly people to make godly decisions? I think that we are saved as individuals and judged as individuals. I do think that a nation can do things that can brings about negative consequences for themselves. But there are godly people in ungodly communities and the other way around.

Rachelle Marcos

1. Yes, I believe love can really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm. It is surely not an easy task but it is surely the work of God. Bearing in mind that forgiveness does not necessarily entail reconciliation. It is just our part of releasing our judgment and anger to the Almighty.

2. I believe that capital punishment is a form of playing God. I agree with Mithcell's opinion about rehabilitation. Giving the individual the chance to change but at the same time protecting the community. While capital punishment is in the hands of government, we as a part of community play a role in it as well. When we don't forgive a transgression others commit, we are too 'punishing' them in our hearts. I can be said then in this case that we play God's role of being the judge.

3. I believe that salvation is both ways. It's not just about receiving the gospel but we have the responsibility to act it out in love towards others. One without the other is vain.

Rachel Haynes

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?

I would have to say yes, yet in reality I’ve never truly had unspeakable harm acted out against me so personally I don’t really know if my love is at a place where it could ever truly allow me to forgive. In theory forgiveness brings freedom yet I guess one never really knows unless they have gone though something as such.

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God either way?

I actually think that we play God either way – but I think I’d much rather be accused of saving ones life as opposed to taking it.

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?

Both are necessary I supposed – we are redeemed yet we go out from that and live through the context of community.

Chris Morrison

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?

1 Corinthians 13 says love always forgives. Therefore love must always allow us to forgive the unspeakable, because if it does not it is not love.

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God
either way?

In our ethics and ministry class we read an article on stem-cell research that suggested our responsibility as humanity is created- cocreation. Our role then becomes legitimately, playing God.

However the death penalty is nothing more than a form of vengeance which God clearly said was his domain alone. A more appropriate way to do justice and fulfil our created-cocreating role is to work at rehabilitating offenders and allowing them to be effective citizens even in prison.

Concerning the question of do we play God either way. The decision not to put to death is simply the decision not to make a decision and is therefore not playing God.

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?

The end of salvation is reconciliation with both God and our fellow-humanity. We can only prove that Christ has transformed us, and released us from sin, in the context of community as we relate to others. As Jesus said, "they will know you belong to me, by your love."

ashley jones

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?
2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God
either way?
3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is
worked out in the context of community?

em....
1. YES this is the power of forgiveness...
2. Yes, with the countless number of unfair trials given, it is not just- nor is it Godly.
3. I think our souls are redeemed in the personal context, but that community can collectively be a redeemed society, offering models of forgiveness and love...Who can do these things apart from God?

cynthia asante

1.i think love can be enough for us to forgive each other because God gave us love firts. thus God love has shown us how he has forgiven us from our sins and we can stand right before him. God's love is a great example and its proves that it is possiable that love could be enough to forgive one and other.

2. for some reason it almost look like it that human beings are trying to play God. i believe that since God is the one who gives life is the only one who can and should take live away and not humanity.

3. i think it is both,individualy and community. both helps and is very much involve to bring salvation to anyone.

Koki

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?

It could do but through process through which human beings experience and learn to love God. Or, i guess unforgivness could take a form of love sometimes.

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God
either way?

"Who are you to judge others?" Scripture says God is the one who judges. We, humankind, will never have right to judge other people but we live under human law and social context through which God works in us. If we see ourselve in context as limited beings, capital punishment could be something that we are forced to play God.

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?

Salvation is essentially eschatological. It is the process to become more like jesus. At conversion and regeneration, we are redeemed through the Gospel individually and in the process of sanctification we are being redeemed in the context of community.

Daniel Sailer

1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm?
Yes, it must. Otherwise there would be no hope. You can find interesting stories on forgiveness on this homepage: http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stories

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God
either way?
As everybody mentioned before, the community has to be protected. My strongest argument against the capital punishment at the moment is, that there is no security, that innocent people will be murdered. Every now and then we hear the stories of people on death row that were innocent. As long as we don't have the perfect justice system, I think the death penalty is not acceptable.

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is worked out in the context of community?
I am saved - it is a individual choice, but
I am being saved - the woring out of my salvation in the community. So both is true.

Angie Bulic

1. Yes (coming from someone who hasn't had to face that yet)
2. I feel like we are forced to play God either way, but i'd prefer to keep someone in prison rather than kill them. I don't think anyone could be "too far gone" for my God.
3. Community can certainly influence ppl to make decisions for Christ, but i reckon you've gotta choose for yourself.

gordon millerick

1/ I believe love can forgive. I can also see where love will never forgive. I would like to believe that I could forgive, having never really being put to the test , and not wishing to be tested, I will remain with my opening statement that love will and can forgive a horrible crime or action.
2/I need to allow scripture to initiall answer this question. OT eye for an eye, but Jesus died for our sins and instructs love your brother as yourself. But Jesus does not say judges are wrong. Jesus taught honour the king, settle your differences before your get to court or somebody else (in authority) will settle them for you. We are to obey our authority unless it goes against the word of God. The grey area here is the word of God, I will state it a little different then, the correct translation of the word of God.
3/We are redeemed through the gospel via a repentant heart, VERY IMPORTANT IS THE REPENTANT HEART, did you miss that, REPENTANT AND HONEST HEART. Salvation comes from the same place REPENTANT AND HONEST HEART.
Bless you all
Gordon

Neil Castro

1. yes. It may not be always black and white, but forgiveness can only really happen in and through love.

2. Like a lot of other things we do, capital punishment is a form of playing God... to take matters into our own hands or take control of the matter.

3. As DP says... i reckon "both/and" rather than "either/or"... or that we are saved through the Gospel individually, but not soley in itself, but within the context of community.

Rebecca Lowe

Questions:
1. Can love ever really allow us to forgive those who have meted out unspeakable harm? Yes I believe so, love frees us to forgive and not let unforgiveness make us bitter. Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Love covers a multitude of sin.

2. Is capital punishment really a form of playing God, or are we forced to play God
either way? It is a form of playing God, but I think it's hard as a society to know what to do with human depravity. Murderers and rapist can't just rome the streets but then again how long should they be caged like animals and what do they teach them whilst they're behind bars?

3. Are we redeemed through the Gospel individually, or is salvation something that is
worked out in the context of community? Creation alone declares the existance of God, I think we are saved individually but community just helps us to be in the two way relations God created. Love God, love people. Also we are able to correct and mentour each other in community. Iron sharpens iron etc.

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