On the back of having watched the 1957 classic The Seventh Seal in class last Wednesday, this week Dr Shane Clifton, together with Dreu Harrison, discuss the evident Nietzschean influence in this movie and unpack Nietzsche's notion of the death of God and the meaninglessness of life.
Download film_lecture_five.mp3
The podcast assignment for this week is explained on the audio lecture above, you will also need the following article to complete this task.
Even though my head hurts from all this mental gymnastics, i appreciate this discussion because Nietzsche's insights permiate our culture and our thinking. I reckon if we try and understand him, we're better equipped to provide our generation with the answers they're looking for, in a way they'll understand.
I accept Nietzsche's critique of the church's arrogance (re: truth) but i do think it's too much to say that we can't know anything. We should be humble about our knowledge of truth and realise that our knowledge of God is at best, incomplete.
There is so much to comment on and explore, but at the end of the day, if you question everything = there's no truth = which means no meaning to life = and consequently legitimises living a hedonistic lifestyle.
I don't think that such behaviour is ultimately fulfilling and therefore God is the perfect answer for our need of truth - and i think we should have more films that portray this.
Posted by: Angie Bulic | August 15, 2007 at 05:38 PM
This is the first time i've ever heard anything like this. So it was really challenging.
While i was listening to the podcast, i can't help but figured, could postmodernism have derived from Nietzsche's theory? if that's the case, then he has impacted our society powerfully.
With the summary statement of What is Neilism. "Nielism is the crisis of meaning and value that stems from questioning so much that when you come to the end of your questioning, the entire world & God, has dissapeared" Realistically its abit over the hedge because if life is meaningless and that all they do is questioning everything, even the question that they're asking, then it's never ending, they'll never find an answer. if that's the case then what's the point of asking the question.
From reading the 'reading' it has helped me, to question more about things, but not to the extent where i keep on questioning it. The 'madman' is 'Mad!' so why is people listening to him???
What you guys said about the purpose of life, i think its Brilliant!
Posted by: Chris Lee | August 15, 2007 at 10:36 PM
The podcast was intersting.
I really enjoy the conecpt of Nietzsche's article "The Madman". Challenges are good and this article is definately confronting and causes you to really think about the point and issue the Madman was communicating.
Posted by: Kasie Carpenter | August 18, 2007 at 04:19 PM
I can see how characters such as john allowed The Seventh Seal to explore concepts like Nielism. John had such a care free attitude. The horrors of life and death did not affect him, like it did other characters. He had obviously given in to a Nielistic concept of fate and found liberation in that. Ignorance was bliss, so to speak. I have met people like this. "It's all too hard," they say, "So why bother"? The crisis of meaning, value and the existence of God is still very much a part of our culture today. We are bombarded with many answers for truth, but real truth is still available. Not truth for the purpose of power but truth for the purpose of finding answers to the God question we all ask. Finding redemptive truth, that which Nietzsche missed.
I can see the appeal in believing there is no value in truth and denying God. De-valuing life by asking questions, until nothing is left, allows someone like John in The Seventh Seal to live a care free lifestyle. One that answers to no one and has no expectations. Thus, there are no let-downs and life is safer. Is a life with no truth worth living?
If all you have is your subjective truth, without questions, then you can never be wrong, challenged or find real truth. People end up saying, "What's the point"? If there is no truth then why are we here? Some may find liberation in denying the search for truth. I find it helpless. We need to question life and find truth. I agree that there is limits to such questioning. Taking questioning too far, like Nietzsche, can eliminate truth. Pity such complex thinkers missed the truth. I agree with Dreu that Nietzsche defined God improperly. Love is stronger than Power. God's love, revealed through Jesus is the truth we all need to be seeking.
Posted by: Matthew Lowe | August 18, 2007 at 04:44 PM
you can always tell Matt's comments 'cause they don't fit on one screen! Keep it up. Anyway what struck me about the reading was the line "what festivals of atonement, what sacred games will we have to invent" (to atone for killing God). I thought that caprured human nature quite well. Even if there was no God and no truth I would chose to believe there was because life is better that way. I'm sure that's a terrible philosophical argument.
Posted by: Katrina Freeston | August 19, 2007 at 10:56 AM
I think that it is so true on how Nietzschean theology has infiltrated our modern society, it is quite evedant.
I liked that we had to read the article about Nietzsche because it gave us a greater understandind and insight of what exactly was the way in which Nietzche went about showing the world this new way of thinking.
This podcast was very insightful and interesting, and helps to further understand the themes portrayed in 'The Seventh Seal'. I enjoyed it.
Posted by: Kellie Warren | August 19, 2007 at 04:26 PM
My senior high school English teacher was a memorable character. She advocated, amongst other things, that pinching essays off the internet was right and good since "everyone does it," that every classic piece of literature was inspired by some type of opiate, that gentlemen should devote their early years to "sowing wild oats," that men are comparable to handbags - "some carry a lot of money, some hardly any" - and should be chosen in respect of one's attire, that we should all buck the shackles of conformity and come to school either nude or in fluoro for the sake of individuality, and that above all, the meaning of life is to seek the meaning of life, a thing that in fact does not exist, but keeps us going in self-projected facade til our years dry up. She seemed desperately lonely, cynical and nervous.
I think she is a nihilist. Life is a "tale told by an idiot," she would dramatically pronounce, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." It seems a very hope-less worldview, and judging by my teacher, it is. But, I think Shane made a good point in suggesting that some people, such as Bergman's squire, see this as a freeing and hope-full set of beliefs.
I find it most interesting that we Christians believe that God was indeed killed at our hands - "..we have killed him." We don't affirm that "God remains dead." The cosmic comedy of the cross is that Christ's death is the very means to his victory. Neitzche differs.
There's a book called the Life of Pi which has nothing to do with apples nor mathematics. It tells a tall tale about a boy who survives for months on the open sea in a liferaft with only a tiger for company and terror. At the end of the book, upon his arrival on land, he recounts his story to the local authorities, who question the existence and participation of the tiger in his saga. No one has seen the tiger except the boy. The boy's response (or the narrator's, can't remember) is that the listener should decide if the tiger was there. The narrator concludes that the tiger was true simply because he likes the story better that way. I'm pretty sure this is not relevant, but if the tiger is a God-metaphor, it all seems rather profound. It might have something to do with nihilism, but, hey, you interpret what you like..
Posted by: Nathan Lyons | August 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
What an awesome podcast! I really enjoyed listening to this. It was incredibly fascinating and stimulating. I hadn't heard much about Nielism or Nietzsche before, so learning about this was great! There was so much to think about in this podcast... I don't even know where to start with this comment!
I guess a good place to start is to comment on Nielism. This is a fascinating concept and as Dreu and Shane were saying, it is an idea or mood that has permeated the thoughts of our society to an extent that people have come to the conclusion that there is no truth and that everything neglects stable meaning. I found it interesting how the masters of suspicion captured this theory and how they did so pre-WWII. This seemed to give way for much of the post-WWII view on crisis and the meaninglessness of life.
I found Nietzsche's views very interesting and challenging. When he said that there are no facts, only interpretations and that everyone is subject to tortology, it really got me thinking about how we interpret 'truth'. I agree with Shane - the church really needs to be more humble in our interpretation of truth. We also need to be extremely careful of our intentions. I found Nietzsche's view on Judaism and Christianity fascinating - how they speak truth out of self-interest (seeking power) and how they have no value for life. This is a challenging critique, as it is very valid and something that we must be aware of.
I agree with the conclusion that Dreu and Shane had on Nietzsche's philosophies - that he is deeply pessimistic and that his views need to be considered with balance. If our questioning goes too far then of course we will end up with nothing. I really appreciated how they both concluded the discussion by stating that the meaning of life must be found in God, and therefore in love, rather than in seeking power. I also loved the statement that if we do not have God's love in our hearts, Nietzsche will win by default. Powerful.
The article was interesting. It described exactly what Dreu was saying about how Nietzsche believed that history is realising that God never existed at all. I also appreciated how Dreu brought up that we must determine which God Nietzsche was talking about before we dismiss this idea. I think Nietzsche's philosophy in its entirety has some significant challenges and critiques that shouldn't be ignored by the church but rather embraced in a way that prepares us in facing a world that has in a way adopted this viewpoint quite significantly.
Posted by: Jessica Edward-Paul | August 20, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Sorry for spelling 'nihilism' wrong.. haha
Posted by: Jessica Edward-Paul | August 20, 2007 at 11:38 PM
Everyone - i should note that Nathan Lyon's wins the spelling be. The correct spelling is (wait for it)....:
Nihilism
Posted by: Shane Clifton | August 21, 2007 at 06:49 AM
And, talking of spelling, "be" should be "bee"
Posted by: Shane Clifton | August 21, 2007 at 06:49 AM
Nihilism and Nietzsches worldview is something I grew up with in The Netherlands. I think the education there is more based on these thoughts than on Christianity. The percentage of Christianity in Europe is very low and unfortunately many live by the Nihilistic believes, talked about in this lecture.
It seems to me that this is life is one with no purpose or significance everything just happens and death is the end.
My interpretation of Nietzsches article was that God was actually alive before(even though the writer was an atheist), but that we as humanity have killed him by implemeting our own rules and regulations on society.
Posted by: Prisca Post | August 21, 2007 at 10:22 AM
It's always real interesting and challenging listening to Dru Harrison speak. His brilliance and intelligence combined with Shane Clifton makes it almost impossible to keep up with the philosophical and theological questions raised in the podcast. Nevertheless, it was thought provoking and stimulating.
I think Nietzche has an interesting way of portraying what the majority of our society think in regards to life’s meaning and truth. For example, there are many who believe that what is true for one may not be true for another. I would, however, have to disagree with Nietzche’s interpretation of truth, that it is “simply a hidden way of operating in your own power to further your own ends.” While there are those that have this similar view of truth, and by questioning everything to the point of nothingness and meaninglessness, there are also those who seek to genuinely seek out what truth is, not because of any other means than simply that – to discover truth…and it is in some of these cases that when people do seek, they hopefully discover that truth in God through Christ.
Overall, I’d agree with Dru in trying to understand a bit more about Nietzche’s philosophy before totally dismissing it. It’s still worth pondering on, and allowing room for challenge and critique.
Posted by: Neil Castro | August 21, 2007 at 04:04 PM
I have only a few thoughts about this that are currently coherent enough to share with the world. :) My first thought relates to the comment near the end of the podcast about which 'god' Nietzche is declaring to be dead - a God of power or a God of love. That comment made me think that it seems to be a somewhat overlooked question when people talk about believing or not believing in God. I mean, some people who claim to not believe in God, when asked what this God is like that they don't believe in, they describe a God that I wouldn't believe in either! Does that make sense??
My second thought relates to the idea that some people find a sort of freedom in this meaninglessness of life. When that idea was first mentioned (near the beginning of the podcast) my mind immediately went to my recent reading of Ecclesiastes, where the writer repeatedly refers to life as smoke and spitting in the wind. It's interesting how, though the same conclusion is reached - that life is meaningless - there is still a difference. The writer of Ecclesiastes comes to the end of his ponderings and finds hope, while nihilists seem to find an empty hopelessness... I don't know. I guess it just got me thinking, because it's not only nihilists that come to a conclusion that life is meaningless... I'm in way over my head here. :)
Posted by: Drea | August 21, 2007 at 05:09 PM
I find it fascinating that Nietzsche's Nihilist thoughts have pervaded society to such a large extent, that it can be so evidently seen in phrases such as "that's your opnion", "do whatever as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" etc. I find it fascinating also that at the same time as this, that there has been a rise in interest in mysticism in popular culture, such that tarot readings, palm readings and interest in the New Age has been openly investigated and upheld by increasing sectors of society, from celebrities to music greats.
There seems to be an increasing dichotmony in society towards the supernatural, and the church must be able to respond to both sides adequately.
Posted by: paul tan | August 21, 2007 at 06:02 PM
In light of this discussion, one could say post-modernism is very closely related to Nihilism where the absolutes or certainties in life are reduced to mere questions with only echoes in response. Nihilism affirms the selfish nature of humanity and that the quest for power is the motivator of mankind. This is also closely related to Darwinism's belief of the 'survival of the fittest' which affirms that only those who hold the greatest power will survive and more importantly, deserve to survive. I wonder if Neitzsche was identifying himself in the character of the madman as his message was so radical in an age where a world void of God was too outrageous to argue. I wonder if his belief is that of humanity evolving into a stronger race over time, which will eventually come to accept that there is no god. This supports the popular idea that God or religion is used as a crutch for the weak. Nietzsche views the use of absolutes in history as a way of purely enforcing authority due to the innate drive for power in humankind. Christianity believes that the only way humankind can overcome this innate drive, if it validates it at all, is through the love of God, which Drew argues is not ignorant of power but operates on a whole other level - only by the grace of God which enables us to love as Jesus did.
wooooooooooot. love love love intellectual theological philosophical discussions that are thought provoking and not just intellectual arguments for the sake of sounding intellectual haha. loved it. Thanks guys!
Posted by: Felicity de Sauty | August 21, 2007 at 09:00 PM
I think this podcast should serve as a reminder of the role Christ should play in our lives and also in our evangelism. For me, the concpets of Nietzsche rasied both in the lecture and article led me to question whether we as the church/ Christians portray God as dead. Do we constantly uplift God to the righful place that presents him as the giver and sustainer of all life? Do we present his love and grace?
Or rather, do we just defend or ignore without engaging with society's opinions?
I think we continually need to check we engage rather then box thoughts and ideas - from both secular and Christian sources.
Posted by: Liz Langton | August 21, 2007 at 09:00 PM
I have to laugh over 2 things. The first being that I actually did not watch the film 'The Seventh Seal' so my understanding on the intention on the film is still quite...unsure. You have to agree that hearing the opening of the movie is a knight playing chest over death (is that correct??) is a little alarming...cough. So Im not quite sure if this response will make sense but ill try my best.
The second matter that I started to laugh about was hearing the end of the podcast in relation to Dreu's conclusion on Nietzche's ideology, that being in the natural world the strong dominate the weak. Wnners write history yet what is so profound is that Jesus did not write history because of his power but rather that he showed us who God was by the act of selfless love, sacrificing his power. That analysis captured my attention as for to long i have been striving with my own power to find the meaning of a 'happy life' when instead my purpose in life includes the self-sacrifice so that I may love others.
Posted by: Jacqui Bouchier | August 21, 2007 at 09:16 PM
Neitzsche' thoughts have definatly invaded much of thinking in todays society.
I also agree with whats others have been saying when there should be further study of his view inorder to understand his thoughts and then go further to be challenged by them and critique ourselves where need be.
Since coming to college I have been taught to think and challenge what we can percieve as 'truth', primarily for the reasons of understanding why we or others hold an opinion. And while I go through stages of questioning...well am continually going through stages of questioning, do wonder when is too much questioning too much. ...I think?(Got ya!)
I remember asking Dr Clifton if he is always questioning things (probably a dumb and obvious question to ask shane some would think) and he replied "if your not questioning then your obviously dead". And with that I stopped questioning him about it.
But there must be a point at which we have to stop questioning or else there will be nothing at all to hold onto. Are perhaps those who continue to question until there is nothing left standing afraid of the possibility of truth?
And to finish off, one thing that does fascinate me is the way many will question nearly anything that dares to back up the existence of God, however take anything that supports the view of athiesm on face value.
Posted by: Pete Hordern | August 21, 2007 at 09:30 PM
The crisis of meaning was portrayed through the movie, "The Seventh Seal" and it was interesting and thought provoking to hear the podcast and to read the article. In today's society and culture, we are often faced with the statement on what Shane said: "Every religion is as good as every other religion... I'm glad that you believe that - part of everyday speech and everyday thinking". So how do we respond to that? Well relationship with Jesus Christ and not "forcing" our religion to others because what people think is that every other religion is as right as Christianity!
The meaningless of life, what is our response to Nietzche - how do we respond to the meaning in life? I really enjoyed what Dreu said in answering this question, he said: "It must be in reference to God, if we understand God as life and His love". How true is that! Love God and love people, I believe this is one of the most effective way that people can find the truth! Regarding the article, it does definitely challenge us as Christians to be real in our lives - not being fake, authenticity, transparency, honesty and so on. Well can we explain the meaningless of life to our friends and people? I believe we can - by loving God and loving our Neighbour (our friends)! Interesting podcast and a definite thing to ponder on...
Posted by: Matt Lesmana | August 21, 2007 at 10:12 PM
I couldn’t access the reading, so I will have to get hold of it some other time… but I thought Shane and Dreu did a great job with this week’s podcast discussion, I enjoyed it very much and found it worth while and relevant. It is refreshing and interesting to hear the meaning of life discussed and explored in a way that engages with philosophy yet comes back to a heart response - that is as Christians our lives should be devoted to loving God and loving each other in a way that reflects our love for God. – Good stuff!
Posted by: Emma | August 21, 2007 at 11:29 PM
This is one heavy discussion and yet very compelling and challenging our faith as Christians. It is true that in our daily lives, we don't realize how the thought of non-absolutes has permeates our thinking. How everything is meaningless and objectivity is just an absolute subjectivity. It is a challenge for us theologians and minister of the gospel to reach a world that's shaped in this paradigma.
The article on the madman is very interesting as well. The way I interpret the text is that, we have killed God by our unbelief and our own way of thinking denying God's absolute truth. It is a wake up call to the church of God to be real like Jesus was - giving His own life as the proof of an absolute love.
Posted by: Rachelle Marcos | August 22, 2007 at 12:50 AM
Ok, cheesy, but I thought I would respond to the podcast lecture and parable with a parable of my own. Where else will I get the opportunity to try this?
Were you not told of that troupe of poets who slept in the common square, and agreed only that their art was indeed art. Those passing by in the morning and late afternoon could hear their recitals and any other hour, their quarrels. A traveler came one day and paused to listen at first light. They began as they always did – “Let our words fall upon the contours of your ears as the words we speak or those you hear, but let the air incubate those living things that transfigure even in our mouths.” One by one they spoke of hands, fields, politics, dreams.
The traveler had not much thought on such things and felt strange for as they spoke the colour of their words filled crevices in his memories of the objects and subjects of their poems. He stayed long enough to hear them argue about two things: the sun and gods.
The traveler sat next to their circle at the conclusion of their performance and intently listened to their discussion. “The sun is comfort to the barren cornfield,” said one. “No, the sun is its barrenness for it steals the water from the thirsty kernels,” said another. “The sun is a man, “ said the tall one, “for he kills and makes life at his whim.” “No! Not at his whim,” cried another. ”He is a slave, a forlorn one that chases his captor and love, the moon, whom he shall never have.” The traveler listened. The sun shone on them as they pondered. It browned their shoulders and cast shadows. The traveler knew little of the sun except of its light and warmth that came in the morning and left at night. He concluded that he could not prove any of the poets wrong and that they could not turn seeds into corn.
They sat for a moment, then the bald one spoke, “Perhaps the sun is a god-“ but was interrupted by another, “What god can be restrained or be a slave to the moon, or to anything? It is the wine of gods, this power that exempts them from constraints.” The tall one spoke again, “Perhaps the retirement of the sun, as a god, at night is not one of compulsion but of knowledge that the kernels of corn would shrivel if it remained and drown if it never returned.” “Your superstition clouds your interpretation, friend,” said the first one who spoke, “You believe in gods and thusly see them in everything. The sun is no more a rose than it is a god.” The tall one replied, “Your disbelief stains your conclusion, as well.” The first one rebutted, “But far better are those who rely not on superstition to protect themselves from the beautiful chaos of our universe.” The tall one sat and thought before saying, “I say far better are those who know of life through both experiences and choose for themselves what higher road they will.”
The traveler knew the time to leave had arrived by the shifting of the sun and he gathered his things. As he began to walk towards the city’s end, a poet called to him, “You! What say you of gods or no gods?” The traveler turned to stare at their circle and furrowed his brow to make speech of his thoughts. “I cannot say for sure whether the sun is a god or whether it is a sun but it sets soon and I need be miles from here when it does.” He turned to leave, and said, “The sun surely will rise and set as it pleases, but the rose will wait to be without the sun’s warm fingers in her roots. With what else, then, is she to know existence except by the kindness of the sun in its tide.”
Posted by: Brittany Tovado | August 22, 2007 at 02:30 AM
Bravo Brittany
Posted by: Shane Clifton | August 22, 2007 at 06:43 AM
What a fascinating reading and podcast. In the "different but pretty like same" circumtances with Prisca, I growth in Indonesia... they believe God, but God like dead. More and more people has tried to follow nihilsm as well. They believe that there is God but they face up a tragic condition such as so many cathastrope... "Where is God" they asked..
It is really challenging to live the glory of God in our live... The tendency of this world is always "quetioned God"... In my opinion, it is really challenging.. The world want to see Jesus through us
Posted by: Wigand Sugandi | August 22, 2007 at 08:13 AM